First off, I want to say, the result aside, what a great game that was to watch.
But blimey, that last minute goal practically ripped my guts out.
The worrying thing is I think we all knew it was coming, even that late on.
Which sums it up I suppose, because we simply can’t trust our defence and it isn’t going to get any better this season.
So it was ultimately Engels who made a basic error in letting the ball get past him, when all he had to do was get contact and just hoof it upfield.
I was immediately raving and doing my fruit over him, but on reflection, it doesn’t really matter, as we’ve been prone to this sort of mistake all season and it could have been anyone.
The really annoying thing is I thought we more than held our own against Spurs and would have deserved a point.
Pepe Reina had much to do with this, as he made some great saves, which made him my man of the match.
But I want to give credit to Samatta too, as I thought he played well. He shows good control and the way he flicked one particular ball over and round him, to run on to and see off a defender showed definite class. He works hard and seems to have good awareness of where his team mates are, meaning he lays the ball off nicely.
He’s also often in the right sort of place too, which is frankly a basic requirement for a striker. Oh and he actually heads the ball.
I’ve never seen any of this from Wesley and when you consider we paid twice as much for him, you have to wonder what happened there?
Ok, you get flops, but hmm.
At least when Wesley comes back, he knows he’s got serious competition, which has to be a good thing.
So what went wrong?
It’s hard for me to say, as we definitely put the effort in and tried our best not to give the opposition any time to play.
I do feel we mess about too much at times and I commented about one occasion where Jack took a free, which resulted in the ball being kicked out to one of our mids in the middle of the pitch, who took too much time and then passed to another mid, who also took to much time and was forced to pass back to Reina, because Spurs had pushed out.
To my mind, there’s no excuse for that and we end up giving the ball back to the goalie, when we have most of our players upfield. The ball should be going forwards, not backwards, meaning we keep applying pressure.
It’s a similar thing at the back too, where we mess about too much and look vulnerable to having the ball stolen.
You’d think we would have got away from this by now, but I don’t see it changing with these players.
I think the players are just trained to pause and take a look before passing, but it seems beyond them at this level.
Frankly I just don’t think we’re good enough to play like that at this level.
Ok, Spurs are fifth in the league, I think. But they didn’t look it
Their defence looks equally as vulnerable as ours, but they do have a difference.
They have top class players, the likes of Winks and Son, who can just do stuff that puts the opposition under pressure.
We just don’t have enough of that.
And that, to my mind, is why we lost, when we should have got the point.
We’re just overall not good enough.
That said, that doesn’t mean it’s all doom and gloom.
I thought Spurs weren’t that good. But they’re still fifth in the league and we gave them a game, to say the least. We looked much better for the break and that’s encouraging.
Well, at least I’m not saying we looked poor again.
It’s Southampton away next.
Now that is a critical one.
So i’m gutted, but not as downbeat as I have been after some losses.
We bottle it against the traditional top 6 every single time – so predictable yet it still makes you feel sick. Teams like Newcastle are no better than us but theyve beaten the likes of Spurs and Man Utd through effective game management and being able to defend as a unit. Thats why they are in midtable and we are facing relegation.
How and why we do this to ourselves – its madness. 93 minutes against a top half side and a goal kick – you see the game out and take the crucial point, not push 7 men into the opposition half. Sure many will blame Engels but the defending was shambolic throughout by all the centre backs and our shape horrific. We gifted Spurs the ball in critical areas so many times that eventually we would be punished.
I think we’re doomed after that though – the energy it takes out of you losing it in the last minute. Remember the Leeds game last year and the last minute goal just before Christmas – we didnt win for about 6-7 weeks after that because of the draining effect it has on the squad. I think this will have the same effect and we’ll go on to finish 19th. Either way, Dean and Terry have 12 games to save their jobs and the clubs future. I could not be feeling more pessimistic right now.
It’s difficult to argue with your analysis Beamo and I’m not for one minute suggesting that it isn’t going to be difficult for us to stay up. We’ll definitely be relying on other results to a greater rather lesser degree and these are teams with far more EPL experience than us.
However, with my super positive Worsel Gummidge head on, I’m encouraged (hanging on for dear life 🙂 ) by two things.
First – the reported reaction of the team in supporting Engels after his mistake gives hope to the team ethos. It can go two ways – they give up or fight even harder and with McGinn to return…..
Second – if we’re going to find a run of form / results, the later the better – like scoring in the last minute! Look at the recent runs of Southampton and Watford which are not being sustained – they are being dragged right back into the mix. Add West Spam, Brighton, Bournemouth and the Bar Codes into the mix and all is not yet lost. Yes that point dropped would have been massive but a clean sheet (law of averages?) and a win at Southampton and it all changes again.
I feel the same way as you Beamo. We are talking about doing the basics to ensure points but we can’t even do that. Grealish must wonder why he is surrounded by so many clowns. Samatta looks like he has potential. He is definitely an improvement on Wesley. El Ghazi offers very little and I don’t get why Trezeguet doesn’t start. Behind the front three we have mostly championship standard players. Luiz was decent today and Mings has mostly been good for us. McGinn has been a big miss though. Nakamba works hard but like Hause, doesn’t look comfortable on the ball. Both full backs look fragile defensively, especially Targett. Konsa for me has potential but is still young and prone to mistakes. Reina was excellent today and kept us in it and must be frustrated by what he has in front of him. Unfortunately we have an inexperienced squad being coached by inexperienced coaches at Premier league level. We are looking a good bet for relegation and we will have to start again without Grealish and probably McGinn and Mings which is a huge worry. We could end up like we were under Lerner when the initial investment gets recouped through sales of our biggest assets before they put us up for sale after losing interest just like Lerner did.
Yet beat Man City in the cup and we’re in Europe.
Very unlikely, I know, but always possible and no, I’m not mad.
I don’t think our owners will give up on us that quickly, fwiw.
I’m trying to look at positives and like I said, I think we played ok.
Against a team in fifth.
Today, while a point would have been good, this is not the game that will put us down, imo.
It’s the Southampton sort of game that is more likely to relegate us if we lose.
Being honest the cup game matters little in the long run. If we win the cup and go down Grealish and Mings aren’t suddenly going to stay. And being in Europe and the championship with the volume of games would be a recipe for disaster.
The frustrating thing is we have after 3 years got a nucleus of a team that we can build on. With Jack, Mings, McGinn, Heaton / Reina and Luiz I think we can form a team that can progress. But the biggest obstacle was always staying up this season. I’d happily lose 10-0 to City in the league cup final to stay up on goal difference. I know it sounds a bit pathetic – but if we go down the whole rebuild starts again. And there is no guarantee it wont take another 3 years or even longer. We know from experience how easy it is to get sucked into the bottom half of the championship.
I just cannot see where the points are coming from – we need a minimum of 4 wins from 12 and if you write off the games agains the top 6 (given our bottlejob approach to them) then you’re looking at 4 in 8. Its looking very grim indeed.
I agree, I’d take survival over the cup all day.
I probably worded things poorly, but the point is we’re on;y one step away from Europe and our owners would see that as massive progress, if we were to get there.
I just think our owners know it’s a longer game than you suggest and won’t run quite that quickly.
They’ve seen the potential, where we can pull in 40k at home, even when we’re seriously struggling in the prem.
We are at least equal to Man City or Chelsea over the last 100 years plus and they know this.
If we get relegated, I’m convinced they’ll go again.
And we absolutely will not lose all three of Grealish, Mings and McGinn.
No way.
As you say too many silly mistakes in defence which has been happening all season, and giving the ball away too much. Far too much ball watching from players who shouId know better, and also think we stand off the opposition too much when we should be pushing on. Overall we should have got a draw today. I thought Jack dropped off in the second half when we needed him to do something special. The defence must be encouraged to hoof it out or upfield when that is what’s needed, and I’m surprised Terry hasn’t drummed that into them.
If we carry on as we are I can see only one outcome of this season.
And sod the cup, it’s prem football that AVFC craves!!!
I know this is not going to please anybody but with only seconds left why did Reina who is supposed to be experienced kick long instead of wasting time and take the point. This is ok trying to win games but when you have a point and seconds left you take that.
Potenchino is still available?
And sammata looks like a good buy,why take him off with only minutes to go stupid management.
And i liked Smith. It’s like Clough and Taylor apart not good. And looking like Smith same without Frank. Looks like a few more year’s in championship just when the top 6 are maybe losing it.
Roy, if you hoof it up to their half in the last minute, it means they’re not in our half.
I’m sure Reina would have thought we can hold it for that long, as did I.
You just can’t account for what actually happened.
And the fact is Dean Smith just doesn’t know how to play like that anyway.
Yes, we’d have done it under Bruce, but would you want his football?
Badger
I’m glad we are of the same opinion about the ownership not changing. Our owners have a track record of building teams in differing sports. They are not slash and burn owners. For what it is worth they keep Investing in share capital and not loaning monies to the club, hardly the actions of short term owners.
I am still of the view, if we go down we are in far better shape than last time. I think we are now into the Burnley mould. Keep the nucleus of the squad together and add from sales of Grealish, Mings and McGinn. Also I would not sack Smith. We need to build on the foundations. These are in place but not yet premier standard. Further time and investment will hopefully deliver long term gains.
I was amazed Villa players were booked today. Yet Spurs cynically tagg teamed Grealish with foul after foul and no booking.
Sid, I agree with your the bookings but it’s Atkinson. Happy to warn Spuds players even after three tackles yet Villa players booked on first poor tackle – and they were no worse than those by Spuds players.
We deserved a draw, yet we handed Spurs their 6th consecutive win at VP on a plate.
Sid/Hitch,
I thought the fact our player got booked first was poor too, but it is what it is.
I can see us doing a Baggies, in going up and down and back up again.
As you say Sid, we’re aquiring the basics, even if we’re not good enough at this moment.
I’m sorry, in response to those that don’t agree, but I’m not fully despondent, because we haven’t been relegated yet.
Suso is dodging all the bullets again. Who ‘sourced’ and signed Engels? Not good enough. He stank the place out against Southampton and today, after being out of the team for a while, did it again and cost us a point. A point which may be the difference in staying up or going down. It was the type of error a 45 year old bloke with a beer belly and who’s always picked last makes on a 5 a side pitch at midnight after putting in a long shift at the local factory. Amateur.
Terry was arse-licking Jose well before today’s kick-off. I bet he was out of breath mints at full time, ready for his big, sloppy kiss. I wonder what Jose said: “John, you must be the worst f****** defensive coach in the league. Thank you!” I’d rather have Bruce as defensive coach.
As for Smith, I just don’t know. Losing so many goals in added time is scandalous and reflects very badly on him, as he is the coach. There’s just far too much immaturity everywhere, but lessons aren’t being learned.
Finally, I said if after the Palace game. Take these prick officials and the PL to court. I mean it. How can Atkinson justify and get away with the way he administered yellow cards? These ‘officials’ MUST be accountable. They should, like managers, be required by the PL to give a post match interview. Now that they have VAR, they should have nothing to fear. But they’re not applying the laws correctly, are they? VAR is for ‘clear and obvious.’ It CANNOT be ‘clear and obvious’ if it takes so long to decide! Maybe they’d do a bit of revision if they knew they have to be interviewed after the game!
Relegation is too close to call but it would be a brave man who bets on us staying up.
Oh, and why has Hourihane disappeared since Drinkwater checked in? What kind of totally f***** up decision making is that???
Fair point. I thought El Ghazi did OK and put some good crosses into dangerous areas so I was a little surprised when he was subbed for Trezeguet who offered very little. I would rather have seen Hourihane come on for EG.
P.s. I think I’d rather see Elmo on the right of the defence. At least he’s got the experience to deal with the nerve shredding run-in. Most of the squad will be shitting their little pants on the pitch, Gary Lineker Italia 90 style!
I see your point about Raina hoofing ball upfield but he should know about villa by now.and agree why is Drinkwater in instead of hourihane,at least he gives us a chance with the freekicks that grealish wins and I think he does more than Drinkwater anyway he’s unfit. This was the chance to drag c.palace and Newcastle and Southampton in to the mire especially as we got Southampton next and a chance to get at them make them nervous.
I thought Drinkwater was meant to add grit to our midfield but he adds nothing. He clearly has been loaned to us on the understanding he gets match time. Suso and Terry are two of the main reasons why we are likely to go down. Shocking signings by Suso thinking players in Belgium league are good enough to play premier league. Congratulations to JT for the worst defence in the premier league. Both failed but yet still in their job.
Note to self, don’t bother putting much effort in at work tomorrow because it obviously doesn’t matter!
Perhaps Smith said ‘grit’ to Suso, but he misheard?
Absolutely gutted. We definitely deserved something from that game today.
Hard to look past the negatives of our fragile defence and the fact Drinkwater somehow got the start again, but there were some positives!
Grealish is a level above anyone else, Spurs had no idea how to stop him, if only we had converted the chances he made. Our wing backs played well again, and Luiz looked very good on the ball. Samatta looks like he offers a lot more than Wesley too, weird considering he cost way less!
HUGE game next week…but arent they all now.
I think if we end up staying up it will be down to Grealish, McGinn, Mings…and after today maybe Reina too!
Analysis on MOTD from Jenas and Keown are basically saying everything we’ve all said all season.
Terry should be embarrassed with the analysis of Villa’s defence. We’ve conceded the most goals from set-plays in the league. The ‘back 3’ were so far apart, never in line, and in our own half most of the time. You often hear pundits talking about ‘throwing a blanket’ over tight defences. You’d need a f****** massive blanket to throw over those three! So poor.
Even the penalty, the lack of attention to detail was evident. Reina was pissed because the defence were so slow to react and Son got there first. Terry’s had a full pre-season with these players and all the supposed lessons of the past 6 months to learn from and put right. Awful.
It’s sad to say but Smith will get the bullet and Terry probably become manager. Him and suso get away with it. I don’t think Smith wanted Terry in the first place.and he definitely not getting the player’s he wanted, it’s probably Terry that got Drinkwater in as well helping his old pals at Chelsea he probably told the special one not to worry he coached defence to give his players plenty of room
Even I could set up the defence better than that as could anyone on this site.in fact I’ve sent email to the owner’s telling them that.v annoyed
Not sure that will happen Roy; Smith may go if we get relegated but, if Sid / Badgers’ view of our owners is correct, then think Benitez rather than Terry.
Relegation will inevitably, imho, see the sale of JG but (and contrary to my earlier post made in a somewhat emotionally depressed state 🙂 ) I think the owners may want to make a real statement of intent, both at management and first team level – subject of course to the vagaries of FFP!
The real concern, which has been highlighted by more than a few on here, is the role of Suso. Whether the transfer strategy being adopted (eg the failure to prioritise the signing of a second striker in the summer / Hogan and Chester decisions) and the general quality of signings he’s been involved is acceptable is open to question, I primarily identify the summer signings as I do now believe in the last window we had to be cautious over FFP and the silly money being asked for players which severely limited our ability to act.
Notwithstanding and tbf, Samatta and Reina look like very good additions to the squad for not a lot of money and were the Hogan / Chester decisions made by Smith or Suso (Board driven to reduce the wage bill – FFP again?)
I seem to have raised a number of questions without having many (any 🙂 ) answers.
Would it not make sense to appoint a defensive coach assuming that there doesn’t need to be a transfer window to do so? What about JT? I hear you ask. I would say to him either accept it or bye bye. He is still a novice and would benefit from an experienced coach to learn from. One thing is certain and that is we are the worst team defensively from goals scored and chances created.
Talking of stats, another one I saw today is Drinkwater has been dribbled past 16 times in 4 games whilst Nakamba made more tackles and interceptions in 30 minutes than Drinkwater did in 60. If I see Drinkwater’s name on the team sheet against Southampton, I will watch Escape to the country instead!
another tough defeat to take, Bournemouth defeat was like a kick in the teeth but spuds loss surpassed it. why do we make so many basic errors ?? without pointing to the last goal error, which was the final straw. villa players made too many mistakes throughout the game. heavy touches lay offs going to spuds players.
first half is were we lost the game, we were so on top there, one nil up we had plenty easy chances to double that lead. but in failing to score the second. it was only a matter of time before spuds worked out how to catch us on the break.
i also seen the penalty back tonight and i do not believe it was a penalty, Engels slid or in the old days was called a sliding blocking tackle. the key here for me was the ball came off Engels for the corner. spuds attacker made contract with engels split second before the ball touched engels. all in all there is no clear error made by referee, so VAR should not over turned it.
i heard the experts think it was a pen but most of these were ex spud managers and players. for all we know the var ppl were ex spuds players and managers too. anyways we lost and no excuses from me we deserved to lose. we have to cut these mistakes out or face the prospect of championship again.
i thought samatta was brilliant he caused them loads of trouble yet villa hardly supplied him with any real service. i would abandon the three hopeless defenders. return to the back 4 and stiffen up midfield and get grealish up front with samatta
Nath, I would have liked to have seen a back 4 with Mings and Chester while using Konsa sparingly to give him time to develop. Unfortunately that’s not going to happen now. The only thing with a back 4 is Guilbert and Targett especially aren’t great in their defensive roles, so Elmo and either Taylor or Hause at LB!
Grealish needs to be up top like you said as either a No 10 or another striker. It annoys me seeing him out wide or even worse, collecting the ball in his own half. Until McGinn is fit again, we need to rotate Luiz, Nakamba and Hourihane depending on the opposition. I wouldn’t even have Drinkwater on the bench unless Lansbury is injured or Coronavirus has struck the squad. Awful signing and Sean Dyche must still be laughing, let alone Chelsea offloading his wage bill on Villa.
hause and konsa are sadly not premiership standard. its not smith fault he wanted webster who joined Brighton and other defenders, both hause and konsa will get better, but this season we have leaned on them too much, i don’t think chester also was ready to play this season in premiership. he has been out injured for such a long time and he will take long tome to reach his best he may never be back to his best.
we played this season with such a poor defence, they are getting better with each game, but the end will come much sooner than they will become good enough.
i want to return to four because we are too gun ho , pressing into the opposition half means we got two centre backs playing like ball playing midfielders, konsa and hause are being asked to do things and be good at it they are our of their depths. we need to go back to basics take out a cb and bring back hourihane or tresguet and push grealish up close to samatta
you are correct about the full backs not being great at full back roles , but the three at the back is also not working, spuds changed their formation to hinder our three defenders,watford also did this. unlike sheff utd who played three at the back ages and now play it to a fashion where the premiership clubs struggle to combat it. our players especially the two wide cb, struggle to effect the game with the ball and make too many errors when they are out of their comforts. even gilbert makes mistakes on positioning.