Submitted by: Terry Jones
As you all know I have been away in Ireland fishing and there have been quite a few discussions amongst Villa and Liverpool supporters over a pint or two. Now as it happens most of the discussions were about how we thought both teams would do this season and which manager, Lambert or Rodgers have mad the most progress with their respective clubs. I can tell you that most fans over there think it’s Rodgers; at first many Liverpool fans didn’t rate him nor thought he was the man for the job.
Lambert however was the man some Villa fans thought was going to be the new messiah. However whereas Rodgers seems to have took Liverpool forward and their currently 2nd in the league which is real progress. Although Villa lie 9th, most Villa fans I have spoken to are wondering what and if any real progress has been made under Lambert? Most of their concerns are to do with the players he has bought to the club and if his policy of young and hungry is ever going to move the club forward .Or are we going to be mid to lower table, not challenging for anything but just happy to keep our league status. I am inclined to agree with the fans I met and admit that Rodgers seems to have made the most progress; Lambert however is a yes man for Lerner or he is like a mad scientist and experimenting with a vision that could eventualy be his downfall and the clubs.
So whom do you think out of these two as made the most progress Rodgers or Lambert. The majority of fans I’ve spoken to say Rodgers. So where do you stand on this? I would like to read your thoughts.
Comments
85 responses to “Lambert v Rodgers”
Liverpool look really good this season, but you have to remember he had a pretty decent squad when he took over.
Villa are definitely moving forward but right now we are too reliant on Benteke and that was really evident against Hull. Our whole game plan is based on him.
We’ve played 2.5 games without Benteke and taken 7 points. I wouldn’t say that’s being reliant on Benteke.
But over the long term we are better with him
Well pointed out Grozzle. While I do agree with oohah, we are much better without him and stats have proved it as we didn’t win a league game without him since he’s joined, Villa are slowly showing that Benteke isn’t the whole of the attack for Villa. That there are players stepping up when needed.
Terry entirely two different paths there, one who has spent money , the other who saving money, now fans want successful clubs unfortunately we have the latter, I can see that if clubs don’t stick together some clubs will go under, who is to say Learners not on that right path, only time will tell, it seems fans are funny people into days world, they demand success, 9th at this stage to me is not panic stations, give him that time to show if he is a good manager and owner. Villa will no die Terry.
Lambert for me is not the messiah nore a candidate to br sacked. Im pleased we have a good rated manager and is relatively popular with fans and media. he also has a good name in football to date. so for now he is good. Now i undsrstand managers need time to find there bearings, come up with a plan, let the plan set into the players and of course buy players. However how many manager can we name who had say 3 to 4 seasons of struggle or mid table football who then suddenly broke through and as if by magic had there 5 year plan turn the team into world beaters? it just doesnt happen like that. you either spend 1 season maxmium making you changes and start delivering the goods or end up like pulis, clough, martinez, moyes and so on. managers have short lived careers because there ideas and purchases should be bringing in the goods after a season.
the big boys like morinhio, Ferguson, Wenger and soon to be rogers had a brief transitional period and start delivering.
lambert in afraid has had a season and now should be showing strong signs on intent in the league. This simply is not happening and what i guess im trying to say is lambert will not break top 4 and will not win the league ig he stayed for 10 years. He just doesn’t have the money and doesn’t have the magic. He will always be mid table pushing top 6 at best. The big boys prove themselves after a season at the most. You watch morinho win the league and sort out Chelsea this season
I agree but mourinho would not be able to manage the current villa squad to higher than tenth. The quality is simply not there dosnt matter who the manager is u can’t make a silk purse from a sows ear
Actually, I do think Mourinho could. We have the Drogba-esque striker in Benteke and with Mourinho’s ultra-defensive formations/tactics, Villa would be winning games 1-0, 2-0, 2-1.
Ha ha no chance. Mourinho would not manage us in a million years he would not go to a club with no money and no ambition. There is no strength in depth either at villa. I’m a firm believer that a manager is only as good as the players he has. Let’s face facts if we signed Rooney Messi Ronaldo and kompany tomorrow we would be favourites straight away for at least a top 4 spot by the bookies not because if lambert but because of the world class players in the team.
You claimed Mourinho couldn’t manage a top 10 spot with Villa, I disagreed. I never claimed he’d ever manage us, and while he’s a world class manager, his ego would run out a few of the Villa fan favorites and he wouldn’t care, so in some way I’m semi-happy, He’s also pretty poor with youth players, never played them at Inter, rarely at Madrid (other than Varane and maybe Morata at times) and rarely at Chelsea unless they’re well known like Hazard and Oscar. So he’d be the total opposite of Lambert and we’d never see any of our youth products being played.
I’d rather have the finished article than youth players who if any good will fuck if and if they are shit we are stick with then. Let’s face facts in the last 10 years how many decent youngsters have thru. Gabby is a decent player on his day which is rare, Cahill the only class defender Wev produced got sold by mon Ffs, baker and Clarke are improving and have a chance, weimann the jury is still out, Gardner no one knows yet. The class youngsters like Wiltshire etc are at the sky 4 despite our investment in youth it’s not like Wev produced a Giggs, scholes etc and if we did they would be with us for a season or 2. Which is why we will be successful.
It’s because the “sky 4” have shit academies and produce no one. They buy them at 17, 18, and sometimes younger, and claim they’ve got the best academies around. You’re right though, we haven’t produced a Giggs or Scholes, but we’ve got a lot of young players that are coming through, not just being bought for a couple million from other countries.
The finished article’s fine at times, but then you get in the shit unless you’re Chelsea who can buy the likes of Hazard, Oscar or City who can buy the likes of Nastasic. Look at United, they’re struggling because the finished articles are finished, and they can’t buy the likes of Hazard, Oscar and such. Even players like Bakkali admit to rejecting them. We need a mixture and I do believe we’ll be seeing that after this season. Can see a few 23-26 year old players coming in.
And he would atleast have brought one decent player from 10mil budget
Hi Terry,
Reminds me of all the comparisons these two had when they were hired by Liverpool and Villa for the 12/13 season. So a year or so later a little check up? Why not!
If the question is the measure of improvement then I have picked out a couple of obvious but relevant criteria to measure the improvement difference between Rogers and Lambert (in my opinion)
League position
Liverpool finished 8th the season before Rogers
they finished 7th last year under Rogers
conclusion +1 place in the table
Villa finished 16th before Lambert
we finished 15th under Lambert last season
conclusion +1 place in the table
Style/football/direction whatever
Rogers has definitely imprinted his possession football on Liverpool to mixed effect last season where they recorded draw after draw after draw
Plus point .. its a modern Barcelona like approach
negatives – Can be just as boring and as ineffective at times
Lambert has implemented a much more attacking style at Villa.
We are definitely an offensive attacking focused team in comparison to the -if we can’t lose it then we should try to draw it approach under McLeish.
Plus point .. goals and a country mile more entertaining than under previous era
negatives – dire defending was the cost of all the attacking as well complaints that the attacking is based on long ball to benteke or bust
This season
League position
Liverpool –
12/13 7th, 13/14 – 2nd
+5 league positions
Villa –
12/13 15th, 13/14 – 10th
+5 league positions
Style/ performance
Rogers,
Positive -same passing possession game but maybe a shade more direct in my opinion.
They are closing out games though and taking points where they dropped them last season
so far you could argue there is further improvement on show especially with results
Negative – they beat Man Utd so far, a Man Utd who currently lie 9th. what other big teams have they faced?
Lambert,
Positive – very effective counter attacking team, ask Man city or arsenal – tough opening schedule too. and currently sitting 10th with 10 points.
negative – Dire home form continued from last season. The city result notwithstanding. Although arguments can be made that it was a still a dire performance at home that day – it was just against a team that hadn’t won away from home yet .. despite the 240 m pounds of talent on display
In my opinion ? . they both recorded similar improvement in their first season
Neck and neck from the criteria I used but I expect further facts to be introduced by better minds than me
The tide swell of opinion from Ireland might have been that Rogers has overseen the most improvement but I think that is simply because your sample of those who opined were predominantly red tinted spectacle wearing Liverpool fans.
I am from Ireland myself and it’s fair to say they outnumber the Villa fans. It’s also a personal observation of mine that they tend to overstate the success or achievements of Liverpool. That’s a result of having to try and defend their club in the face of all the taunts from the huge Utd following there too. It’s almost a default mindset now after 20 years in the shadows to their great rival.
Conclusion? Inconclusive ..
This season is still too soon to really judge either manager just yet.
Otherwise we should all celebrate Southampton’s qualification for the Champions league next year – they currently lie 4th.
(And yes you are correct I just spent 40 minutes and 500+ words to come up with .. inconclusive .. )
It’s comparing apples with pears as Rogers has top quality players in the squad. We got the dregs of the earth.
What a twat! The ‘dregs of the earth’. Guzman, Benteke, Westwood, Lowton, Delph, Gabby, Andi… Dregs? Some of you people get right on my tits! You don’t deserve a good manager building a team and a team spirit from scratch. Why don’t you just piss off to Small Heath!
Compared to Gerrard, Suarez Sturbridge courtinho they are the poor relations. Except for Benteke and Guzan we have no quality in tge squad that’s a fact
That’s an opinion, that’s NOT a fact.
Weimann, Lowton and Westwood would be lucky to make it on Liverpools bench, Gabby would solely because of his pace. Benteke and Guzan would walk in..!!
Gabby wouldn’t be first team choice no way would he be ahead if Suarez or Sturridge
Neither Suarez nor Sturridge play on the left. They have Aspas doing that and he’s not even come close to living up to what they thought he would (mainly because he actually IS a striker).
But gabby drifts in and out of games he is much better. playing central. Look at his performance v arsenal best iv ever seen him play he played down the middle that day. He’s wasted on the left IMO
He’s imo good both ways, although playing behind a striker he can be absolute class. He is still however better than Alberto or Aspas on the left.
Calling our players “dregs of the earth” just about sums you up, young lads are trying their best yet all you can do is continually slag them off. Thats support for you right there. You aren’t a Villa fan thats for sure.
Rubbish our players except Guzan and Benteke are very poor players in comparison with other prem teams. How many of our players would start even at teams like WBA Southampton Swansea? Benteke and Guzan definitely the rest would be in and out and mainly on the bench
11 players make a team. Not individuals. Couldn’t care less whether our players would walk into other squads. I only care that our current team is clearly improving, as a team, we’re 9th after one of the toughest starts in the league, as a team, much higher than expected by pundits and the like, as a team!! Didn’t Liverpool want Weiman last summer?? So they obviously see something. Delph has some of the best midfield stats this season and has been heavily, linked by people other that us, with an England call up. Ahead of players in other premier league teams. Can you just give our TEAM some credit? We are clearly improving, no one gets immediate success, unless a lot more money is spent, which just isn’t sustainable. Leeds or Portsmouth or QPR anyone?
Bill to answer you first most whom i spoke to could see the reason to save money but at the same time they tend to question if what monies that have been spent as been wisely and how come neither club seem to scout young players from Ireland Wales or Scotland.But tend to look more to the continent for recruits as they rightly pointed out that in the past both Villa & Liverpool have had some great Irish players in their teams and i must admit we have.Now Aston Thrillers most Villa fans over there think Lambert will never make the grade even if he were to stay for thirty years and they are very passionate about it.
Well, they are wrong Terry, progress is clearly being made, obviously, being in another country, means they do not go to many games to see this. If Irish players were good enough then they’d be getting scouted. Villa aren’t to blame here. All sounding a bit sour grapes. Why don’t they get there own league sorted before criticising premier league clubs for not picking up their players?
Well Terry I think that argument has just raised its ugly head about not going British by the FA, again you can blame fans wanting instant success and going along with over paid foreign players plus being cheaper by all accounts. I’ll say it as I see it, the has to be someone brave enough to break the system of stopping players and agents monopoly on the game that you and I love, Terry the Villa is in the forefront of trying to do that.
Bill Villa maybe trying to buck the trend but we all know the FA don;t run British football it;s been taken out of their hands by two corrupt organisations ie FIFA & UAFA mate oh and not forgetting Sky.
I’ve no argument on that one Terry, but maybe if we all bought British and not foreign the Game would thrive trouble is managers want an easy life by getting the best at stupid price, the two managers your compering are both British, one saving the other buying, I’m saying time will tell Terry.
Both clubs have made some progress, Liverpool more so, because Rodgers had a better and more stable squad to start with and of course more money to spend on fees and wages, meaning signings of the quality of Coutinho and Toure, these kind of players we have zero chance of getting.
Lambert started with a very poor squad with many bad attitudes, he has managed to turn some of this round, without having many funds at his disposal. The team is certainly more ‘likeable’ now, with better characters in the dressing room.
Ultimately, you can’t really judge this season yet, its too early. Liverpool might be 2nd now, but I’ll be very surprised if they stay that high.
I think Liverpool will finish at least top four this year they have arguably the best 2 strikers up front and will score goals for fun against most teams
Good morning i have read all your reply,s to this post.But as i submitted this on discussions i had with both sets of fans am beginning to to think a point is being missed.Both managers have been in charge and overseen three transfer windows and yes it maybe a bit early to make comparisons in some fans eyes.However by what i was told by our Irish cousins is that they are fustrated by the fact that while one as used money wisely to buy one or two players the other as spent money on qauanity and the later as not bought any apart from the odd couple of British players.All the funds he as been given have been spent abroad and another gripe is that clubs like Villa Liverpool Man U seem hell bent in buying from the continent and are not scouting local Irish teams for players as they once did in times past.
While there i did attend a local schools game and yes these kids are as passionate as ever and would give their high teeth to one day be given the chance to play for Villa Liverpool or Man U and this why after talking to these fans i decided to write this post.
Passionate? Maybe, good enough? No.
Football isn’t even the primary sport in Ireland, isn’t it behind Gaelic Football and Hurling and maybe even Rugby in schools?
Graham Burke is born in Dublin, so he would have been spotted through the FAI Schools system, so to say we are not scouting Ireland enough is more nonsense which you are spouting. I forgot you went to Ireland fishing so now you are a fully qualified Irish Football Scout!!
And as for the professional leagues in Ireland don’t we have Edna Stevens (who in my view will never make it as a Premier League player and is indeed at Notts County on loan) who we signed from Shamrock Rovers, the most successful team in Ireland and didn’t we play them in pre-season, so Lambert would have seen their players?
I’m not sure what your angle is here? On one hand you are having a go at the club for not buying quality players, now you are saying we are not scouting Ireland enough.
Maybe I will go to Jersey next week and post about how passionate the youngsters are over there and how they would give their right arm to play for villa and how we are not scouting the channel islands enough.
FFS…….
Good one Mark, have to say, Terry put that in your pipe and smoke it. Again Terry time will tell, Rome was not built in a day, 🙂
it was only this time last year most Liverpool fans were calling for Rodgers head, they had a poor start is all but the knifes were out now they’ve had a good start he’s brilliant and going to at least get a CL place if not win the league!
most Liverpool fans are massively deluded about their club just because of who they are.
Rodgers has made some good signings but has had a bit more money to spend and as has been pointed out had a better squad to start with.
I think there’s a lot of similarities with whats going on at villa and Liverpool, Liverpool may have had a bit more money and of course the ‘Liverpool’ name but they are not breaking the bank either like when dalgleish was in, both Liverpool and villas chairmen/boards have had their fingers well burnt from past managers and both seem to be heading down this, ‘young manager, young squad, building a club not a team of individuals and not pandering to the spend, spend, spend lunacy going on, look at Chelsea, spent millions on strikers yet their 2 best strikers of the last 10 years have been let go to Liverpool and on loan at everton.
sorry forgot about Drogba, he was awesome, but you get the point.
So basically Rodgers is better because he has a team full of 10mil plus players and had an easier start to the season. Liverpool haven’t exactly scouted Ireland either, why should we get the flack for that? I think that’s more a problem with the Irish youth system as apposed to clubs scouting there. We can’t just sign players because we have some support in Ireland. We have some in Ghana too, should we be buying up every youth player there too. Plus, do you really want us spending 20mil on Jordon Henderson or 12mil on Mignolet (who hasn’t look that great imo)?
I don’t think you can really compare the two, Rodgers already had a half decent squad containing a number of world class players + £50m to spend (so far). Whereas Lambert had to build Villa’s squad from scratch and within tight financial restraints imposed by Lerner, it’s chalk and cheese really.
Question for everyone? What do you think of people in this country who support Real Madrid or Barcelona?? Should they be supporting a more local club or is this fine now??
No worse than plastic Mancs I suppose and probably attend just as many games.
I don’t know anyone in this country that supports these 2 teams. Apart from a guy I used to work with who supported barca but he was born there
I know a few. Yeah, there like plastic Mancs. My point being, if this Irish Villa fans fully supported Irish clubs (not that I want lose support) then maybe their league would be better and their players would get scouted and bought.
A few points guys.
Some say you cant compare these two .. maybe you can’t compare the clubs overall due to the disparity in recent history, starting squad quality, resources and brand name ..
So don’t compare those things ..
Compare the managers individual progress, which i commented earlier about. you have to select criteria and a starting point is all.
in terms of not scouting irish players? again you are probably talking to Irish liverpool fans who honestly don’t look much further than anfield at the best of times.
A quick glance at the Villa youth ranks tells me
Clark,( i know his parents are irish or one of them)
Stephens,
Grealish,
Carruthers( i know, i know, but still)
Drennan,
burke
not to mention the recently departed derek williams
in the U18’s squad or academy
Kevin toner
robin dempsey
haha Oohaah as for the dregs statements .. thats your agenda, ever the pessimist or the counterfoil for the more optimistic and possibly unrealistic expectations of other fans here.
but to call them dregs is an overstatement. same points as Utd
hard to call United’s title winning squad .. dregs ..
Unless you are saying there is more to it than just the names on a squad sheet and how much they cost? that players can improve or worsen like in united’s case?
But that would almost be like you admitting Villa could be a good side or could become an even better side
perish the thought!
incidentally from using wiki, and transfermarket.com
I estimate rogers net spend at 47.15m pounds since he arrived.
Lamberts is using the same sites 30m
roughly speaking .. i don’t think its bang on .. but give or take 2/3m it is
transfrmarket tends to be the most reliable football site going, that and Soccerway.
Benteke didn’t make the bench for Belgium and they only need a draw, are 1-0 up through Lukaku so shouldn’t need to see Benteke against Wales either.
Tonev has come on as a sub for Bulgaria, who are down to 9 men but 1-1 with Armenia so far with Villa target and hopeful signing Popov getting the goal.
That’s about it so far on Internationals today.
If we had the same budget as liverpool then this post from mr jones would be valid , we do not so it’s bull , I have £1, 000 you have £10, 000 who can spend more you or me.
Who’s made better progress? Difficult to answer:
Since Rodgers joined Liverpool, he signed Borini, Assaidi, Sahin, Yesil, Sturridge, Coutinho, Toure, Mignolet, Aspas, Alberto, Cissoko, Ilori, Sakho, Moses
Lambert signed: Holman, Ahmadi, Lowton, Vlaar, Bennett, Benteke, Westwood, Bowery, Dawkins, Sylla, Tonev, Bacuna, Steer, Luna, Helenius, Okore and Kozak.
In terms of Euros, Liverpool spent a total of 120.3m Euros, selling 46.9m Euros.
Villa spent a total of 47.4m Euros and sold 8.6m Euros. So they have a net spend of over 70m compared to Villa’s just under 40m.
Lets not forget their team compared to Villa’s.
Their starting 11 before Rodgers was more or less
Reina
Johnson-Agger-Skrtel-Enrique
Henderson-Adam
Kuyt-Downing
Suarez-Carroll
(due to injuries to the likes of Gerrard and Lucas, but they were still there and starting when fit).
Now their starting 11 tends to be
Mignolet
Johnson-Agger-Skrtel-Enrique
Lucas-Gerrard
Henderson-Suarez-Aspas
Sturridge
So their team hardly changed and they didn’t need a MAJOR overhaul compared to Villa. Villa’s had to replace a goal keeper, a whole back line, their midfield, their strikers, the only two or three who are really the same are Gabby, Weimann and Delph. So I’d argue Lambert’s made the biggest impact as he’s had so, so much more to do.
It is very hard to compare because of the points made in previous comments re spending power and squad change.
I’m happy we got Lambert and not Rodgers, what Lambert did with Norwich is far better than what Rodgers did elsewhere, he inherited an already very well cultured Martinez team at Swansea who would have arguably been promoted anyway had Martinez not left for Wigan and he also hasn’t had to change too much at Liverpool despite the number if signins he’s made.
The stats are very very similar looking with a finer comb so it’s hard to tell. The end of this season we’ll know a lot more and if Villa finish in the top half we can say Lambert has done the better job under the circumsatnces. UTV
Colonius81,
Post of the week for me; very well reasoned.
Unfortunately, you don’t win anything for that, but nice one anyway.
Oohah,
fuck’s sake mate, “the dregs”?
That’s a new low and no wonder you’re getting abuse, imo.
Sums him up, I don’t think that anybody takes him seriously.
His hatred of our club and scorn for the manager and players seethes through in every post.
Andrew,
Some very well reasoned arguments there too.
I’m personally really impressed with some of the debate on here, of late.
Keep it up lads, it’s appreciated and it’s what we’re all about.
Badger mate as well as going to Ireland fishing and discussing football with people over a drink have spent a few weekends on the continent mainly Belgium around Adinkerke and i can tell you and the rest of our friends on here Villa are a club that by what i have been told by those whom i have spoken with over a beer or two have a great following.That is why after my recent trip to Ireland i wrote this articale as the general concencus being is both Lambert & Rodgers have been in charge of their respective clubs for the same amount of time and yet Rodgers seems to have made the most impact.Yes he may have spent more money than Lambert but nobody knows the amount of funding each was given and Lambert seems to be afraid to spend more than £2.5 million on a player.Is this why we have not seen Lambert have the impact on the club we were all expecting.Now i know it;s early days and we are in a comfortable position at the moment.But if we do not maintain it and we fail to finish mid-table and Liverpool maintain their position or even higher will it not prove a point that Rodgers will have made the most impact.
I believe you terry when you say most of the people you have discussed this with in ireland and elsewhere believe that Rogers has made more of an impact.
But I don’t agree with that.
I think it appears that he has made more of an impact but when you compare them both.
they have improved both clubs fortunes to pretty much the same extent.
ie league position, the type of football being played and results.
The fact that rogers has spent more is irrelevant. Initial squad depth is less relevant.
The strength of each clubs following is less relevant.
Both inherited Squad x, both have raised the club x places and both have changed the style of play to Y
When you look closely at it i feel that Lambert has improved Villa as much as Rogers has improved Liverpool
What people are distracted by is the amount of coverage and emphasis on being in the top 4 and of being liverpool .. etc etc.
what’s more glamourous ?
– covering a rise from 8th to a premier league title chaser through continental star name players for 10’s of millions of pounds?
– or following a relegation battler achieve mid table status with unheard of players and no name youth promotions.
Who is going to have more coverage therefore more fan recognition
Rogers started at 8th and is now 2nd
Lambert started at 16th and is now 10th .
To say that lambert has not had as much impact as rogers is to say that we expect him to be competing with rogers in terms of position.. and results and player spending and all the rest that goes into it.
And thats not realistic ..
when you boil them both down to measurable criteria to in order to get a more accurate comparison .. Lambert has done as well as rogers.
How has lambert improved villa when we ended only a fraction higher with worse gd ever than mcleish ffs?
While I still don’t think Lambert’s a good enough manager, the amount of changes he’s had to do to Villa and the fact we ended “a fraction higher” shows improvement in itself.
The whole team has changed.
Given – Guzan
Hutton-Lowton
Dunne-Vlaar
Collins-Clark
Warnock-Bennett
Petrov-Delph
Bannan-Westwood
Ireland-Ahmadi
Agbonlahor-Agbonlahor
N’Zogbia-Weimann
Bent-Benteke
For the most part, those have been the changes to the starting 11 from McLeish to Lambert last season. 1 name remains the same. So the fact we even finished “a fraction higher” shows improvement.
So looking at those changes where are the players better than they were before other than they are a lot cheaper now. At best it’s a like for like squad at worse I think I preferred the previous 11 except maybe Guzan for given and benteke for bent
Now that’s untrue Oohah, do you mean at last that you liked Dunne?
Did you, did you really actually prefer the previous 11? I really am questioning your ability to judge a players talent if you really, really would prefer the old 11.
The previous 11 finished higher in the league enough said
ha ha, what was i thinking ? 16th is better than 15th