Ok, I expected to lose this one, so it’s not a major loss, in my opinion.
I called the score too, so hey hoh.
But it’s really not that important and while I see some of you are majorly upset, I don’t think it’s such a bad loss in the greater scheme of things.
Look. We will lose games over this season, because we really aren’t that great.
But it’s more about how the squads can last the pace and look how Sheff U have quickly fallen back.
There is no doubt that we have one of the best squads in the league, as much as we moan and bitch about the quality.
And we have to hope that this is what will sustain us in the long run.
Let’s get real and face the fact that we started yesterday without a proper striker.
Our squad is cut to ribbons with injuries (and in fairness, this has been an on-going thing, where you have to wonder why?) yet we are still up there.
All that said, we started the game without a recognised striker and you’re on to a loser before you start.
I seriously have to question why Hogan didn’t start?
And I can only think Steve Bruce thinks he’s useless.
Which makes you wonder who actually bought him?
Ha, I’m taking a positive view, just to counter the criticism that the site in general, is too negative.
Let’s see where we go in the next few weeks.
I predict a few losses over the Christmas period.
But it’s still a long term game, where regardless of what you think of Bruce, it’s what he does.
We’ll be thereabouts, at least.
UTV
Everything is still all there to play for, imo,
scott hogan has just recovered from injury and was not able to play the full match. probably was unable to play 45 minutes so was not risked.
as for bruce thinking hogan is useless then maybe bruce didn’t sign him. just because he was manager doesn’t mean he controls all the incoming signings. looking at hogans record he is too good for villa anyways. he scores majority of his goals in and around the 6 yard box and villa never reach that area of the pitch, unless its our own 6yard box then we always passing back their.
hogan plays of defenders shoulders, we do not have many players that could pick out suck clever runs. so the reasons why hogan is shit maybe like looking in the mirror and discovering we are shit and hogan style doesn’t suit us.
hogan could still be a decent buy but its looking like under a different manager. or under different tactics. if he is playing lone striker then you need to cross the ball into the corridor which is through the 6yard box or you play through balls for him to run onto. he would also make a good partnership with davis i am sure. but he has had one game i can recall. partnerships take longer
Totally agree – long way to – beat Sheff Utd and things look less bleak – if being 5th in the league is that bleak. We are still in touching distance of 2nd place, just… with 24 games to go – the majority of which will see us play the weaker teams away and the stronger teams at home – perfect for a side excellent at home and above average away.
Automatic promotion has gone, I think we’ll scrape 5th or 6th as we tend to do okay against the weaker sides like Burton, Barnsley etc but i cant see us winning the play off lottery as every time we play a decent side we dont show up. This is mostly down to Bruce’s ultra cautious and negative tactics. He must still think he’s managing Wigan or Hull, with a small time, backs to the wall attitude. He just cant deal with the expectation of needing to win week in, week out. Draws are as useless as losses if you want to compete at the top.
Quite simply we couldnt afford a run without winning after the shambolic start and this December form is the final nail im afraid.
We’d be better off clearing out Bruce and his outdated staff now but I accept thats never going to happen with the dinosaur Wyness on the board.
It’s not so much we lose games, we are going to lose games. Every team bar City apparently do. However the problem is, is who we lose to, and who can’t beat. Which is why most of us are upset because we know that the teams we’ve lost too are the teams that are challenging for a top six spot, and if we can’t beat them now, how in the hell can we beat them in the playoffs when even more pressure is on?
Based on the evidence I can’t argue with you but I think our home games against these teams will be different – 2 wins in our next two home games against Sheff U and Bristol will make us feel better hopefully….
Just a thought. Does anybody think we would be in this position, seemingly struggling in 5th, if we had had a full squad to chose from for half of the games we’ve played this season?
No manager has been dealt a more injury ravaged season so far than Bruce. I’m not making excuses for the bloke either. Prior to Derby I attended the 4 previous games and can honestly say, hand on heart, it’s been the most dire football I’ve ever seen down VP. However with his experience and knowledge of the division I’m still convinced he is the best man for the job and couldn’t really give a shit if we play awful every week as long as we are in with a chance of going up. At this moment in time we very much are.
BUT….If Bruce can keep us in a challenging position, which he has done, despite the awful injuries we’ve had to contend with, doesn’t the bloke deserve at least a little bit of credit?
I’ll also say that if we do go up and there isn’t at least 150 million spent on that squad then I honestly think we’d come straight back down. Regardless of who the manager is.
saturday match has one silver lining jack grealish. bruce has been saying the right things regarding him. building a team around grealish is a good start. one of grealish’s skills is being able to spot a players run, for us to build a team around grealish we need runners like hogan like lansbury. both these two will compliment grealish. on saturday grealish was looking for a runners, but always no villa player was running into advance spaces. onomah just came to the ball, he isn’t a forward thinking player.
if bruce can find the formation to display grealish’s skill. where he is in the middle,free of defensive duties and has eager runners to hit. this season won’t end with a damp squib.we all know the injuries are hindering us and its hard to be patient when we just want to win. keep the faith / faith no more
Nath
I totally agree with you on Grealish in that he can unlock things, but I just feel
that unless we play the right players around him he becomes a bit luxury. We need players that make those runs and take defenders with them to create the space for him play, but as you have said he looks up and there are no options. I also think when he is played out wide he is not as effective as when he plays a free roll in behind a central striker.
totally agree rocky
the runners is essential. i saw saturday grealish looking for runners and nobody was on his page. other players pass the ball and stay stationary, but grealish is moving into space, ready to receive the ball again.
your spot on about the wide roles. he needs to be free of defensive stuff, give him the licence to attack. that means down the middle behind the striker. he will tackle and close down cause thats his commitment to villa. but i would coach him, to just attack and open up the defence.
why would we want to tie down our best player, with chasing the ball around tiring him out. on saturday villa players were looking to grealish every time we had the ball. he has imagination the rest of our team just don’t have that. even the derby players looked at grealish but that thought. stop him and we have got this game. they rough him up and surrounded him. if grealish had better players around him, he would be more dangerous.
Nath I think if you give the opposition the opportunity to crowd Grealish out then the supply has gone. In nearly all the games I have seen this season apart from may be Burton away we do not give the opposition defenders enough problems when we have the ball to make it difficult for them. For me we are to predictable and teams just know how we play us. Millwall at home is a good example of that as they just snuffed us out and with there pressing game on our key play makers. I don’t like negativity but I do believe we need to be a bit more attack minded in our team selections that give the opposition more to think about. Yes we have injuries but apart from only having Davis as the only recognized CF he cannot do it all on his own at the expense of packing out the midfield.
i couldn’t agree more we have been found out lately. teams have found a way to crowd the areas we are attacking like the wings and they are pressing us.just like millwall did. we haven’t used the ball well at all. but we did use the ball well at times at derby, we made derby run around and pinned them back. like the second half at leeds.
but you are correct we are too predictable. we have to have more tricks than just finding davis. teams get their plans to stop this and we don’t seem to be able to work out our next moves.
if you watch villa, we pass so slow and deliberate. players don’t work when we have possession. then watch greealish he passes and moves only feets away, but he is back free in space demanding the ball back, games without grealish we have made ground very slowly to their opposition box. only to retreat far quicker with a back pass to the halfway. this is because we don’t process a player with grealishs vision. when he is at the box he will look to shoot or look for a through ball, he needs to be given the ball close to the box as possible.
I think Grealish could be the answer – perhaps a jaded Hourihane could be rested for a while with Jedinak and Whelan the water carriers allowing Grealish to link with Snodgrass and Adomah and Davis? Elphick could surely manage 3 games before Terry comes back.
I still think there’s room for youngsters in the team, if anything of them winning last night 4-1 is to go bye, I’m not talking about defenders but frontal attack player’s, just think, fast movement, quick thinking, and not player’s waiting for the ball, that alone would un nerve opposition defenders, we cannot think the old school by sitting it out saying not enough senior games, them lads are getting goals, if it was me I’d play them to piss off the player’s that think I’m safe. Waiting for reasons not to,
I’m not as keen as you about throwing the kids in, Bill.
I can understand the clamour, but what if it goes wrong?
The last thing you want is kids getting criticised for making mistakes, imo.
That said, Whelan drops a disastrous backpass in and “it’s all ok and it happens” sort of attitude from Bruce.
We should definitely be giving more kids, more minutes when we’re winning.
But Bruce relies on experience and that’s what you’ll get on the bench.
i think each kid is different. some are almost ready and some are not. agree with badger its not ideal dropping the kids in the deep end. if they are going to be playing up front. then none of our under 23 are able to do that role. maybe murphy but he is no where near fit enough or built up his strength to resist incurring more injuries, he needs to be gently coaxed back into the the game at under 23.
i think some kids could play a bit bit and that will increase, as badger states, ohare could be introduced, more and more. but he isn’t the lone striker we all wished he was. if we are going to put somebody up front ou of their comfort zone it should be the first team players with experience. gabby and hogan etc both will be closer this weekend. hopefully davis will be fit this weekend too
That’s the problem Badger, we all look at the sensibility of it but just take a step back in life, when I was 18 I could move the world, young men died at 17-18 years of age, why do we think that a 18 year old cannot do a man’s job because he’s 18.. Give them a chance to prove, example Trevor Francis played at 16, Rooney he started out at 17, give the a try or we will never know.
I agree we should be throwing them in and now!.. they learn faster when theyre 18 so why not give them the experience to go with. Some might just turn out to be class players. Id say the prem is the deep end not the championship so give them the experience now so when we do eventually go up they will be ready. Guarantee if we go up we will buy loads of players and these kids wont get a look in at all and be sold for 50k to Preston etc.
Bill, kids are much more fragile these days and don’t handle the pressure so well, imo.
My Whelan example is a good case, in that it proves you need experience to be able to shrug it off.
Adam, if these kids are going to be sold off cheap ( I agree with you), what’s the point of throwing them in and risking things?
We either trust the manager, in concentrating on experience, or we don’t.
In fairness, it seems many don’t.
You’re doing “kids” a discredit though.
How many times have we seen other teams bring youngsters through at a very young age and they do great things. Conversely, how many times have we seen someone in their mid to late twenties make a mistake and take months to recover any semblance of form.
It all depends on the individual, and you are doing a very stereotypical thing of throwing all young people into the same boat. Young footballers, like all people, are different. Some will be able to hack it and some won’t.
I can firmly say that we shouldn’t play an entire team of youngsters, or half a team for that matter. But adding one or two of the truly talented ones to the squad (particularly attacking right now) will be beneficial to add a bit of variety, create competition, and maybe just cause a bit of confusion to the opposition. They may or may-not make a difference results-wise, but right now we are limp up front, plain and simple.
Them,
whelen had a mare last saturday. but lets not forget, everybody makes mistakes. all the team had a mare but it was his mistake which was punished. i lost count of silly stupid mistakes last weekend by all the players. but i noticed after he subbed, villa really struggled and it was only a matter of time before derby hit us on the break and finished us off, we were passing back far too often, that is a major sign that their was no movement up field, hence why the players passed it back,
goes to show you how experienced whelen is all players can make mistakes. but whelen will not shrink and he will return bigger and stronger he will make amends.
Not convinced about U23’s scoring a few goals in that league – they don’t even tackle – it’s not real football. O’Hare and RHM should be on the bench and get on if we are desperate but that’s about it.
Totally agreed Owen.
I can’t say I’ve seen many of the U23 games, but I’ve seen some.
And it’s miles apart from even pub footy. At least you get a serious clattering there occasionally.
The point is we need an alternative up front to Davis. Whilst he has done well he isn’t a prolific goalscorer. I have said previously that we couldn’t rely on Adomah to keep scoring as regularly as he had been doing. He isn’t noted as a top goalscorer. He was always going to go a spell without scoring.
Then when you look at our midfield, it doesn’t score many either. A lot of that is to do with the style of play.
Hogan is a proven goalscorer, so we should be setting up the team/tactics to get the best out of him. Bruce doesn’t do that. We can argue whether the players are capable of doing that if coached/directed accordingly. I pin the blame for this squarely on Bruce and his coaches.
Gabby is just a makeweight and we can hardy rely on him to chip in with more than the odd goal.
That should make room for McKirdy and O’Hare at least on the bench. I can’t see any argument for them being overlooked. If we aren’t prepared to give them some pitch time when we are desperately short they may as well not be there t all.
I thought I’m alone on that, glad to see three say the same, to me Bruce is scared to go out of his comfort zone, so are some fans, if he had just tried on them to games we lost I would have said, well at least we had a go, at the minute he’s hand on chin, scratching his head, making excuses after excuse. I’m not saying bang them in from the start, I’m saying look at the game figure out what’s not happening then change it, simple.
We have 6 more points this season than we had last season after 22 games…
McKirdy and O’Hare should’ve been on the bench a long time ago.
If that’s right it’s a very interesting stat. We need to do better and we should be ahead of where we are. Injuries haven’t helped but I still think it’s down to Bruce.
7 wins, 10 draws, 5 losses. Then we went on to 1 win, 2 draws and 7 losses the next 10 games, so hopefully we do a bit better than that.
Interesting also. Some people are happy with that record. I’m not.
Kevin Toner has officially left for St. Patrick’s Athletic in Ireland.
He was on a year contract with Stevenage, is that a termination of contract or a
sale?
That’s a good question. No one’s mentioning that. My guess is termination of contract, at least no fees have been mentioned. My guess if there was one, it’d be incredibly small. But I’m guessing it was on a free.
Didn’t play much for Stevenage so I’m guessing they were fine with the loan ending.
their is no sure thing guarantee about any youths transforming into the 1st team regulars. no short cuts. their is a queue that you need to get in line and earn your place. bruce will play anybody who is good enough. so don’t be fooled. green davis and grealish have got in the team. they haven’t walked in. but each one of them has performed and earned his place.
davis got his opportunity last season at brighton he played a blinder. but he had to wait longer. but when the opportunity arrived again he was more ready to grasp. but again he is not totally there. some of you questioned him. touch of irony davis is almost there but his form will be erratic as thats the gamble playing youth and why clubs send their out to smaller clubs to finish their products off. example like onomah so great why don’t spuds play him. cause hes not ready for premiership hang on hes not ready for championship.
i think myself owen and badger are saying we don’t mind ohare and mckirdy being introduced when we are wining again. as subs and bring them on not be thrown into the deep end. sink or swim on our promotion chances balanced on the last threads
They could have been introduced when we were winning (albeit not convincingly most of the time). To argue not to use them now we are not winning is ridiculous. We are 5th. Deep end? We are not in a relegation battle.
Anyway, two games ago you were happy with the way things were going. Nice to see you catching up. No longer a Bruce fan? As far as I can see he hasn’t changed. Why have you? Or do you still feel not beating teams around us is irrelevant? Or do you still think like Owen it doesn’t matter as long as we beat all the weaker teams (which we don’t)?
As for Davis form being erratic. Talk about the established ones like Whelan, Hourihane, Lansbury, Elmo, Adomah etc. How’s their form? It’s not relevant that he is younger. You either perform and you should get the chance, or you don’t so should be dropped/rested/not picked. It’s not rocket science.
Who said it was a sure thing to play the youth? Just give them the opportunity, particularly when the status quo is inadequate. If we were winning all the time we wouldn’t even be talking about it. As for Spurs sending out Onomah as a justification – look at their team and the players close to it. It’s a completely different scenario. We are comparing Onomah with Grealish/Hourihane etc. They are looking at him against Alli/Eriksen/Son/Dembele. Can you spot the difference?
Don’t be fooled. Bruce isn’t the Messiah. Grealish was a regular well before Bruce, Green was a product of injuries making way for him (no problem with that – sort of like where we are now with O’Hare etc.).
So, we shouldn’t play O’Hare. What would be your plan to change things?
Change of tactics?
Change of personnel?
Change of coach/manager?
Nothing? Just wait for players to get fit, hoping things improve?
Or just cross your fingers?
You don’t appear happy with the state of play, but don’t want us to give the youth a chance. You must have a different strategy then and I’d love to hear it.
Oh and Bristol City beating a strong Man U at home in the Carabou Cup. Does anyone think Villa would have done anything but roll over? I can’t even be bothered to check their spend but no doubt it’s buttons compared with Villa.
Anyway. I’m sure you want the same as the rest of us. What do you think we should do if not change the team?
glad you watched bristrol city, shows you how crap this league really is. the amounts of fans on here alone under estimating this league, is itself laughable and shows you the extent of real football knowledge.
bristrol movement with the ball is something villa lack its called teamwork and hard work done on the training pitch. something that could be achieved at villa. but for some reason the team lack this basic. grealish came on and demonstrated this, hopefully his enthusiasm rubs off on the other lazy tw*ts. because villa players are stutues when we have the ball or pass the ball . their is no movement to make space for the man with the ball to have options. or players demanding the ball nobody want s the ball except grealish against derby.
i dont have the answers but ohare isnt the immediate answer. he is a excellent player and has a bright future. he would make a decent sub but is being overlooked . he isnt a 1st teamer yet and cant jump the sub part because he cant last the 90 or 60 minutes of competitive football.
rushed post gtg ltrs
I agree Villa lack that pass and move, and also don’t press the opposition when they have possession. That has to be coaching and motivation. That is what Bruce should be doing.
You may be right about O’Hare and ability to last the pace, but that doesn’t explain why he isn’t making the bench and getting 30 mins or so to build his stamina etc.
Everything points to Bruce. Until he goes I can’t see it changing.
On the bright side, we are still 5th and there is time for things to change. Maybe January will provide some insight with transfers plus the run of games coming. Having said that I have lost faith with the club. I really struggle to feel positive about all things Villa.
Yep, agreed Nath.
Play them when we’re winning and breed confidence.
Then add minutes in tougher games after, imo.
Slowly, slowly etc…..
Unless of course, we have an obvious Rooney/Francis/Little type of player, who’s a class apart.
But we simply don’t produce those sorts.
Grealish? Decent, but nowhere that calibre and he’s supposedly the best we’ve produced in a while.
And it’s frankly why I’d just disband the academy, if it wasn’t for our tradition.
It hasn’t performed for years, yet it was top of the chart for KPIs a short while back.
A joke, imo.
But I’ve done that debate before and it’s old 🙂
Sorry, but it’s all part of the hype, which annoys me.
Rant over, I promise 🙂
So, as has been said, Kevin Toner has left us for St Pats.
The fact that I thought he looked ok for us (because i do support kids when they’re played) says everything about how poor we were.
And when you consider we were probably paying him more than he’s got on this new contract…..:-(
Sorry that some on the site disagree about youngster being used when all have failed as strikers, i believe they should get the chance because who the hell do we have, Gabby?, Hogan? Failed players, ok let’s all just moan by picking on central defender’s should have done this, should have done that, we don’t have the manager to let loose youngsters, in his playing year’s was a defender hoofing balls up field. I stand by what I’ve said they should be getting the nod, and nobody will change my mind on that thought. I watch the match last night and B.C. ran their socks off we have player’s standing and watching , unless Bruce gets tough we’re going nowhere. rant over.
People are talking like anyone thinks the likes of O’Hare and McKirdy should be starting or playing 90 minutes every week. Not a single person has said either should be doing so. We have however said they should’ve been on the bench, and they should have. O’Hare could’ve very much replaced Grealish until he got injured, with O’Hare being back up to Onomah, and McKirdy despite being more of a support striker, can play up front alone, and coming on with 20 minutes left could’ve very much worked. And with no striker fit, McKirdy deserved a chance. If he didn’t work, he’d have been dropped when Hogan got fit. McKirdy’s 20 with his contract up at the end of the season. It’s time we get to see what he’s made of before we let him go for free. Seven Out of his 8 games for the U23’s this season, he’s played up front.
Exactly Andrew, we stuck has be end in so what’s the difference? at least its showing wanting.
Predicted text shite, has been in .
Exactly, plus Davis has played 90 minutes regularly for how long? Green was playing consistently before he got injured. Why is it these two players couldn’t land 90 minutes, but Davis and Green could/can?
Steve Agnew joins the coaching staff. I’m sort of underwhelmed. The usual old mates appointment. He failed at Boro when in charge, admittedly not an ideal scenario for him there.
Or is that just being negative? It’s hard to keep a sense of proportion – something that Badger is pointing at in this thread.
Well, he did work with Bruce while with Hull and it helped them go up. I guess it’s better than nothing at this point as old Bruce needs all the help he can get.
You can look at that two ways, Bruce hasn’t the confidence to do the job, or wants to blame someone if he fails. We all know the next two games are vital in getting confidence back in the team, i just like to know who will he use as a striker in them games.
When someone can claim we’re the biggest club they’ve ever managed, and it’s Villa in the Championship, not even Villa in the Prem, you know his confidence isn’t high. Especially with 20 years in the game.
He’s your typical British manager though. No matter how bad they do, they’ll tell you they’re the man for the job and turn it around. Lambert and Sherwood both said the same thing after every game.
I don’t think he has the confidence to do it, but if this Agnew guy gives him it, as we’ll never let Bruce go, even if we go up, or not, he’ll be our manager till he decides himself too leave, we can only hope Agnew gives him a push.
Yes I know he was with Bruce at Hull – that’s what I meant about old mates. That’s also around 5 years ago so not sure whether to see anything positive in the move. Presumably he was available 6 months ago, so not sure why Bruce didn’t move for him then, unless Calderwood is about to be the sacrificial lamb and get fired now.
I don’t trust what Bruce does either, I mean he’s making the excuse for Hogan that we have expectations at this club and it’s gotten too him. Which is by far the most pathetic excuse you can use. Then again Bruce used the same excuse for himself. So it’s not surprising.
I can only hope Agnew gives him that kick in the ass he needs.
villa have been getting worse, last three games. but before that they were pressing and working harder with the ball. so why have they slacked off. all season we have just done enough, that is players switching off when they feel they done enough. i don’t believe for a minute bruce is preaching score and then lets defend. he also isn’t saying lets not press or work when we have the ball.
so why have we failed to take our game to the field more. i don’t know maybe its the players not wanting to work for the manager or coaches or fans. they are good enough. but the league is very close in ability, that a slightly more work efficacy will make all the difference or more organised team, with possession we are slow moving the ball around. we don’t move off the ball to offer the guy with the ball options. meaning he is passing back and the fans moan more. its like a catch 22.
losing davis very late in the day last weekend. they would have had to change tactics last minute. then all the work in the week would have been binned. so preparations were not great.
we should use January to wave the white flag start reducing the wages and blood all the youth = sheff utd beat us weekend, hopefully the season will peter out. we can use the 2nd half of season blooding all the youth. then we can all argue saying what we haven’t said lmao
p/s sheff utd are top 3456 so we never beat these teams